How do you see bail affecting communities, especially communities who are already in poverty?
Josh: I think bail it really places people in the communities who are you know, low income, in more debt. And a lot of people, I really think they give people bail so they can hold them, so you know that they can make people sweat. So you know, when their court dates come up, they can plead guilty, because most people plead guilty anyway, but that’s basically the whole outline of the system. You know they give you a high bail which they know you probably can’t pay or if you do pay, your family is going to be in more debt then they were before the situation happened. And then also, you know if you can’t pay, they hold you in there for so long, so that when they come to you on trial day, you’ll take a deal. So they’re using it as a tool, to you know, trap more people, and lock more people up.
Sarah: And it’s usually disruptive and destructive to families and communities in Philly, and everywhere, but when you think about it like we have a system that claims that it believes that people are innocent until proven guilty, and yet just because somebody says that you did something, whether or not they have evidence, whatever they have, people are taken from their families, they’re taken from their jobs, from their homes, and detained for in Philly it could be months and months and months, it could be years. We’ve had young people who, you know we had a young man in our workshops a few years ago who was held for 3 years pretrial, and then he went to trial and he was found not guilty. That’s when he was 16 to 19. Josh was held for 18 months pretrial. And then the charges were dismissed. On bail if it was a kid with money from the suburbs, or from anywhere, who had resources, he would have been out in a second. It’s really destructive and when somebody is locked up, even if it’s just a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, even if it’s a short amount of time and they get bailed out, it can still be enough time to lose your job, it can be enough time to lose your housing, if people are raising kids by themselves, sometimes people’s kids get taken from them, if you’re in, in Pennsylvania I think it’s a year and a half if you’re incarcerated they can actually terminate your parental rights. You can lose all rights to your children. So it’s really destructive and disruptive. And doesn’t seem like it’s in anyway about creating any kind of community safety. Especially given that the only reason that people are being held is because they don’t have the money to get out.
Terrance: I think bail disrupts a community because a lot of people like they saying, that’s in there is innocent. So you got innocent people in jail dealing with stuff they wouldn’t want to deal with it or shouldn’t deal with for something that they ain’t do. It’s disruptive to the neighborhood because, for example, I got a friend who was locked up for right now for something they ain’t do. But his grandma is sick, and any given day she could pass, so she pass he ain’t do nothing. He in jail, because he had a bail that was high, he went upstate and now his grandmom is sick and these are his last years that he needs to be around his grandmom. So it’s definitely putting an impact on the hood. Or you can have somebody who’s doing some good in the hood, like giving out turkeys on turkey day or giving out coats, and they get locked up for something they ain’t do. And now them little kids who was expecting them Christmas gifts on Christmas. And turkey, little baskets on Thanksgiving, or the coats in the winter. They ain’t going to get it, because the person who was providing it, is locked up. So it definitely disrupts the neighborhood as far as good and bad.
Sarah: And it’s usually disruptive and destructive to families and communities in Philly, and everywhere, but when you think about it like we have a system that claims that it believes that people are innocent until proven guilty, and yet just because somebody says that you did something, whether or not they have evidence, whatever they have, people are taken from their families, they’re taken from their jobs, from their homes, and detained for in Philly it could be months and months and months, it could be years. We’ve had young people who, you know we had a young man in our workshops a few years ago who was held for 3 years pretrial, and then he went to trial and he was found not guilty. That’s when he was 16 to 19. Josh was held for 18 months pretrial. And then the charges were dismissed. On bail if it was a kid with money from the suburbs, or from anywhere, who had resources, he would have been out in a second. It’s really destructive and when somebody is locked up, even if it’s just a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, even if it’s a short amount of time and they get bailed out, it can still be enough time to lose your job, it can be enough time to lose your housing, if people are raising kids by themselves, sometimes people’s kids get taken from them, if you’re in, in Pennsylvania I think it’s a year and a half if you’re incarcerated they can actually terminate your parental rights. You can lose all rights to your children. So it’s really destructive and disruptive. And doesn’t seem like it’s in anyway about creating any kind of community safety. Especially given that the only reason that people are being held is because they don’t have the money to get out.
Terrance: I think bail disrupts a community because a lot of people like they saying, that’s in there is innocent. So you got innocent people in jail dealing with stuff they wouldn’t want to deal with it or shouldn’t deal with for something that they ain’t do. It’s disruptive to the neighborhood because, for example, I got a friend who was locked up for right now for something they ain’t do. But his grandma is sick, and any given day she could pass, so she pass he ain’t do nothing. He in jail, because he had a bail that was high, he went upstate and now his grandmom is sick and these are his last years that he needs to be around his grandmom. So it’s definitely putting an impact on the hood. Or you can have somebody who’s doing some good in the hood, like giving out turkeys on turkey day or giving out coats, and they get locked up for something they ain’t do. And now them little kids who was expecting them Christmas gifts on Christmas. And turkey, little baskets on Thanksgiving, or the coats in the winter. They ain’t going to get it, because the person who was providing it, is locked up. So it definitely disrupts the neighborhood as far as good and bad.
So what do you guys think is a better alternative to cash bail?
Josh: Well I think that the system should definitely come up with some type of….for bail. The should come up with something...because D.C. is doing a different model. There are basically more programs in place so that people can be out and people can be able to attend to their life, without disrupting their life. And also checking in for court and everything. They should definitely try to demonstrate D.C.’s model, and do that so that people won’t miss out on their life and you know breaking up people’s homes. I think if they use D.C.’s model a lot of crime would definitely go down, and a lot of people would be able to you know, take care of their families and everything will be better.
Terrance: I visited Red Hook, somewhere in New York, I think it’s around Manhattan. And they don’t have a bail unless you committed an outrageous crime and they have lots of alternatives to sending people to jail, like they got one judge, so he’s focused on everybody because he’s one judge and he really go home and he go home and sit down and study people being kept up for drug violations, and he’s like alright let’s give them a rehab, a worker to come out to his house making sure he’s not using and stuff like that. Or alright he robbing people, alright let’s find a nice job for him or something like that. Like I went to Red Hook and the last thing they trying to do is put you in jail. So they find over five, ten alternatives to alright, say your mom got you locked up because you drawin’ in the house fighting your brother and sisters, they sit down with all, the whole family, and say, “Why ya’ll doing this?” and right then and there they come and say “Well because she treat him better than me.” Alright now, mom you hear what he’s saying? And then she gives her explanation. Now, they coping with it, they know what their problems at home are, so they don’t gotta send their son off to place him in a jail. So they got a lot of alternatives, and Philadelphia could come up with a lot of alternatives, instead of sending people to jail or giving them a high bail they could work with them. And they even got some where you can come down to the courthouse one day once a week and check in and ask, “Can I talk to someone? I feel like I was going to do something I wasn’t supposed to do can you talk to someone, before I get sent to jail? So it’s--there are a lot of alternatives; libraries, schools, rehabs--real rehabilitations other than prison.
Sarah: Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of cases, like when we as part of YASP or a part of Decarcerate, another work that I’m a part of that we talk about that prisons are not, do not make our communities safer, and when harm or violence happens in our communities that we should have ways of responding that actually addressing the things that are causing it, like Red Hook does. Like looking at like why is this happening and how can we be changing these, rather than putting people into prisons and jails that actually cause more violence and re-traumatize people who often experience trauma at other points in their lives. And so I think it’s important to think about what are other ways to respond to crime and violence and we’re thinking about alternatives to bail, I think it’s also really important to remember that in many cases one alternative is nothing. It’s just recognizing that people are innocent and haven’t been proven guilty of anything. They should be able to continue their lives, go to work, take care of their kids, do all of the things they were doing, and go to court, go through the legal stuff that they’re supposed to go through, and if they’re found guilty or plead guilty then the question comes up what’s the right response to that? But in the meantime, unless it can be shown that someone is an active danger to themselves or to other people, or there’s a reason to believe that they aren’t going to come to court, those should be the only reasons that someone should be detained before they go to trial. And that’s in D.C. and in at least some places in New York like Red Hook, it seems like that’s the way the system works, like in D.C. they only hold 15% of people before they go to trial, compared to Philly where we hold like 60% of people before they go to trial. And whereas in Philly the default is incarceration, the default is let’s just lock them up until we figure something else out. In D.C. they try, the idea is to find the least restrictive way to get someone to come to court. So whether that’s just that the court gives court reminders or that this person is dealing with some sort of addiction and needs this kind of program while they’re awaiting to go to trial or you know, whatever other thing needs to be put in place, it’s to find whatever way will help them get to court that has the least harmful impact on their life.
Terrance: I think another way is, I wouldn’t want this, but house arrest. Alright house arrest you see they work, you see they have a job. Alright put them on house arrest and let them go to work. He gotta go pick up his kids, let him go pick up his kids. Sunday, if he’s doing good on house arrest, let him spend Sundays taking the family out or something like, at least house arrest, you don’t hold him for cash bail, and he innocent right now until proven guilty. So you can put him on house arrest, and give him a curfew, or give him a couple days out. Let him go to work and make sure he’s home by the right time. Or like a pretrial probation, where you checking in so like they had an idea you coming back to court, so if he check in with us every two weeks or calling up on us, so we can trust him and put more people on house arrest or letting people go home pretrial and not giving them a bail because it’s starting to work, our little method is starting to work.
Terrance: I visited Red Hook, somewhere in New York, I think it’s around Manhattan. And they don’t have a bail unless you committed an outrageous crime and they have lots of alternatives to sending people to jail, like they got one judge, so he’s focused on everybody because he’s one judge and he really go home and he go home and sit down and study people being kept up for drug violations, and he’s like alright let’s give them a rehab, a worker to come out to his house making sure he’s not using and stuff like that. Or alright he robbing people, alright let’s find a nice job for him or something like that. Like I went to Red Hook and the last thing they trying to do is put you in jail. So they find over five, ten alternatives to alright, say your mom got you locked up because you drawin’ in the house fighting your brother and sisters, they sit down with all, the whole family, and say, “Why ya’ll doing this?” and right then and there they come and say “Well because she treat him better than me.” Alright now, mom you hear what he’s saying? And then she gives her explanation. Now, they coping with it, they know what their problems at home are, so they don’t gotta send their son off to place him in a jail. So they got a lot of alternatives, and Philadelphia could come up with a lot of alternatives, instead of sending people to jail or giving them a high bail they could work with them. And they even got some where you can come down to the courthouse one day once a week and check in and ask, “Can I talk to someone? I feel like I was going to do something I wasn’t supposed to do can you talk to someone, before I get sent to jail? So it’s--there are a lot of alternatives; libraries, schools, rehabs--real rehabilitations other than prison.
Sarah: Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of cases, like when we as part of YASP or a part of Decarcerate, another work that I’m a part of that we talk about that prisons are not, do not make our communities safer, and when harm or violence happens in our communities that we should have ways of responding that actually addressing the things that are causing it, like Red Hook does. Like looking at like why is this happening and how can we be changing these, rather than putting people into prisons and jails that actually cause more violence and re-traumatize people who often experience trauma at other points in their lives. And so I think it’s important to think about what are other ways to respond to crime and violence and we’re thinking about alternatives to bail, I think it’s also really important to remember that in many cases one alternative is nothing. It’s just recognizing that people are innocent and haven’t been proven guilty of anything. They should be able to continue their lives, go to work, take care of their kids, do all of the things they were doing, and go to court, go through the legal stuff that they’re supposed to go through, and if they’re found guilty or plead guilty then the question comes up what’s the right response to that? But in the meantime, unless it can be shown that someone is an active danger to themselves or to other people, or there’s a reason to believe that they aren’t going to come to court, those should be the only reasons that someone should be detained before they go to trial. And that’s in D.C. and in at least some places in New York like Red Hook, it seems like that’s the way the system works, like in D.C. they only hold 15% of people before they go to trial, compared to Philly where we hold like 60% of people before they go to trial. And whereas in Philly the default is incarceration, the default is let’s just lock them up until we figure something else out. In D.C. they try, the idea is to find the least restrictive way to get someone to come to court. So whether that’s just that the court gives court reminders or that this person is dealing with some sort of addiction and needs this kind of program while they’re awaiting to go to trial or you know, whatever other thing needs to be put in place, it’s to find whatever way will help them get to court that has the least harmful impact on their life.
Terrance: I think another way is, I wouldn’t want this, but house arrest. Alright house arrest you see they work, you see they have a job. Alright put them on house arrest and let them go to work. He gotta go pick up his kids, let him go pick up his kids. Sunday, if he’s doing good on house arrest, let him spend Sundays taking the family out or something like, at least house arrest, you don’t hold him for cash bail, and he innocent right now until proven guilty. So you can put him on house arrest, and give him a curfew, or give him a couple days out. Let him go to work and make sure he’s home by the right time. Or like a pretrial probation, where you checking in so like they had an idea you coming back to court, so if he check in with us every two weeks or calling up on us, so we can trust him and put more people on house arrest or letting people go home pretrial and not giving them a bail because it’s starting to work, our little method is starting to work.